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[Music]

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greetings to all the lovers of the

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strange

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[Music]

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hello citizens and welcome to

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unknown

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[Music]

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[Applause]

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i'm jason mcclellan thanks for hanging

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out with me

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for our episode today we're continuing

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with this year's exploration of the 1947

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roswell ufo incident

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make sure to listen to the previous

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episode or two if you need an overview

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of the details of this case but at a

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very basic level most people around the

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world have heard of this alleged ufo

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crash that took place 75 years ago

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as i just mentioned i provided an

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overview of this incident on a previous

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episode of the show and as we advance

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our study of this case today we're going

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to move to one of the sexier and more

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sensational aspects that makes the

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roswell incident so exciting for many

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people and that's the claims of alien

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bodies

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the assertion that not only did an

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extraterrestrial piloted craft crash in

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the new mexico desert but the bodies of

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those extraterrestrials were also

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recovered by the military

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let's look together at the sources of

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these claims and any evidence to support

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[Music]

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the mysterious incident that occurred in

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the new mexico desert all the way back

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in 1947 made a momentary splash in the

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headlines but quickly fizzled out and

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faded from public thought it wasn't

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until more than three decades later that

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ufo researchers reintroduced the world

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to the roswell incident and helped

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cement it as a pop culture fixture

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these researchers are the ones who track

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down alleged witnesses pieced things

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together and presented the story we all

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now know as the roswell incident

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from a pop culture knowledge perspective

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anybody who has heard about the roswell

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incident has likely heard that whatever

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crashed in roswell was an

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extraterrestrial spacecraft and that the

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military recovered multiple alien bodies

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from the crash

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the impression given is that everybody

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who lived in or around roswell at the

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time knew about the alien visitors and

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that countless witnesses exist to

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corroborate the sensational tale

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some definitely like to paint that

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picture

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but when we actually look into the

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source of alien body claims the number

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of possible first-hand witnesses is far

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less than one might expect given the

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legendary status of the roswell incident

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let's look at this a little closer

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there are a number of alleged witnesses

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who have come forward to divulge

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shocking details related to this case

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most are from people who claim that

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family members or friends relayed

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incredible information to them over the

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years related to the incident

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but as far as publicly identified

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first-hand witnesses with claims of

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seeing alien bodies who have been

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interviewed

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three

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the first person we'll look at today is

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frank kaufman

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kaufman enlisted in the army and he

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served at roswell army airfield both

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during and after world war ii

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during the time of the roswell incident

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july 1947 he was a civilian personnel

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clerk at the base

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but he presented himself to ufo

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researchers as still being on active

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duty at the time and in a much more

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important intelligence role

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and of course he claimed to have played

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a significant role in the military's

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flying saucer recovery and subsequent

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cover-up

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the testimony from frank kaufman takes a

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story about a rancher trying to get the

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military to clean up scraps of strange

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material from the desert and transforms

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it into an epic tale of an alien

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spacecraft in its occupants and a

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coordinated military effort to collect

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the evidence and make the entire

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incident disappear

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it's frank's testimony that complicates

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the roswell story by adding another

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location of interest

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a second crash site

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frank's story directs researchers away

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from the debris field on the foster

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ranch to a location two and a half miles

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to the southeast

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or 20 miles south depending on which

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version of his story you listen to

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according to kaufman it's here that the

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military discovered and recovered a

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crashed but mostly intact alien

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spacecraft that was approximately 30

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feet in diameter

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he added to his story that three or four

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or five again depending on which version

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of his story you listen to

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small beings with large heads and eyes

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were discovered

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he described them as being very human

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looking they had the normal five digits

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on each hand and they wore skin tight

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flight suits

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he said that two bodies were outside the

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craft while three were still inside

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and one of those outside the craft was

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still alive

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he alleged that the army had teams

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working at both sites to remove any and

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all evidence

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and he even sketched out what the alien

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craft looked like on a piece of paper

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for key roswell researchers don schmidt

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and kevin randle

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but he tore it up after showing it to

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them

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he seemed to have a habit of teasing

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documents and the like but never

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supplying them to researchers

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as for the alien bodies kaufman told

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researchers that the bodies were placed

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in body bags and then were all sealed in

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a single wooden crate

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this single wooden crate was then moved

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to an empty aircraft hangar

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and in pure hollywood fashion they

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shined a spotlight on it while armed

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soldiers stood guard

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this crate was allegedly loaded onto a

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b-29 the next day and flown to fort

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worth army airfield

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the claims made by frank kaufman are

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extremely problematic and full of red

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flags

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his story changed multiple times

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and his claims became quite sensational

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after his death in 2001 his wife allowed

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researchers from the j allen heineck

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center for ufo studies also known as

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kufos to examine files that frank

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asserted were official government

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documents

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kufos researchers discovered that

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kaufman fabricated the documents in an

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attempt to support his wild claims

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this pivotal roswell witness was exposed

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as a hoaxer and a fraud

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i know it might be surprising and pretty

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hard to fathom but this is essentially

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the primary source for claims of alien

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bodies at roswell

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and today many leading researchers have

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dismissed his testimony

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primary roswell researcher kevin randle

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publicly declared that he no longer has

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any confidence in the testimony provided

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by kaufman

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stanton friedman another principal

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roswell researcher even used kauffman to

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take shots at randall

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in an issue of the mutual ufo network's

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ufo journal friedman blasted randall

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calling him gullible for falling for

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kaufman's quote tall tales end quote

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that's one witness

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jim was a civilian not a member of the

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military and he found himself in the

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remote new mexico desert on the 4th of

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july weekend back in 1947

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not because of a ufo

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but because of good old-fashioned

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adultery

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he and a married woman whose husband was

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stationed at roswell army airfield drove

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out into the desert approximately 40

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miles north of roswell to camp in their

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secret love nest

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the bed of ragsdale's pickup truck

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oh yeah

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he provided testimony to roswell

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researchers claiming that while he and

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his friend were

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naked and drinking in the bed of his

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truck they saw a bright flash of light

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headed to the southeast

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they also heard this object roar as it

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passed overhead

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they claim they saw this object crash to

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earth and the next morning they drove

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one to two miles toward that direction

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and they reportedly found a ravine

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covered with strange material

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he also claimed that they found a

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damaged craft and small bodies outside

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this craft

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ragsdale told researchers that he

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started collecting some of this material

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but his friend tossed it back out of the

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truck immediately because she was

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frightened and wanted to leave

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this move turned out to be fortuitous

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because ragsdale claimed the area was

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quickly locked down by the military

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he and his friend were lucky enough to

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escape before being noticed

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as with frank kaufman ragsdale's claims

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grew more sensational and more

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problematic as researchers pursued his

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story

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one red flag was a statement made by his

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wife to a researcher who phoned their

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home seeking more information

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she essentially told the researcher that

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he must have the wrong ragsdale because

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her husband didn't move to roswell until

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1959.

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then there are inconsistencies like

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changing his story to say that he and

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his friend did actually take material

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from the crashed alien craft

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the location of his sexcapade changed to

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the capitan mountains more than 50 miles

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northwest of roswell

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and his interaction with the alleged

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alien bodies became more involved too he

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amended his story to include a brave or

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perhaps stupid entry into the crashed

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craft and an attempt to remove a helmet

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from one of the crash victims

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he even claimed seeing a throne type

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seat that was adorned with diamonds and

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rubies

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his story about the strange material

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transformed and became much more

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exciting

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after changing his story to say that he

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actually kept some of the unusual debris

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he said that he and his secret lover

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proudly displayed it and showed it

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around at a bar

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he alleged that this action caught the

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attention of the military and as a

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result his car

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where he was supposedly hiding the

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material and its trailer were stolen

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from his house

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and his lover the one who was said to be

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frightened and not wanting anything to

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do with the material apparently had some

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of the material with her too when she

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was in a car accident that took her life

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but that material was mysteriously gone

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from the car wreckage

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a story offered by ragsdale to suggest

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the military was killing people off to

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recover any of this alien material

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also another small detail as has become

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such a basic accepted element of the

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roswell ufo story ragsdale said he and

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his friend were camping during that 4th

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of july weekend as a thunderstorm was

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taking place

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but national weather service records

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demonstrate that there was absolutely no

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thunderstorm activity anywhere near

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roswell new mexico from july 2nd through

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july 7th

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the testimony of jim ragsdale

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conveniently took its wild turn

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when he signed a deal with max littell

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one of the founders of the international

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ufo museum and research center in

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roswell new mexico who formed a

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production company in ragsdale's name to

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make money off ragsdale's incredible

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story

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there are clearly problems with this

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alleged witness too

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back in 2015 roswell researcher kevin

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randle publicly offered his opinion that

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quote today i don't think there are many

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who believe that ragsdale saw anything

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end quote

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as we've covered previously the roswell

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incident vanished from the public's mind

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almost as quickly as the alleged alien

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craft crashed to the ground

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it was something that came and went and

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didn't re-emerge until ufo researchers

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00:12:02,069 --> 00:12:00,000
breathed new life into the story in the

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late 1980s

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when the television series unsolved

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mysteries covered the roswell incident

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in 1989 that opened the floodgates and

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alleged witnesses started pouring in

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that's how gerald anderson entered the

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picture

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anderson alleged that he and his family

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were out rock hounding in the new mexico

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00:12:22,870 --> 00:12:20,720
desert in 1947 when they came upon a

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00:12:25,110 --> 00:12:22,880
crash flying saucer

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00:12:27,910 --> 00:12:25,120
he said they saw the craft's dead crew

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and one survivor of the crash

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00:12:31,430 --> 00:12:29,680
these creatures were also described as

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being approximately four feet tall with

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00:12:36,550 --> 00:12:33,440
big heads big eyes

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flight suits and milky blue skin

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00:12:40,230 --> 00:12:38,720
curiously this description changed in

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00:12:42,790 --> 00:12:40,240
different interviews

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00:12:44,389 --> 00:12:42,800
but unlike frank kaufman's aliens

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anderson described the hands of these

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beings as only having four digits

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00:12:51,350 --> 00:12:49,040
he then asserted that a group of

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00:12:53,350 --> 00:12:51,360
archaeology students and their professor

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00:12:55,590 --> 00:12:53,360
arrived on the scene

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00:12:57,910 --> 00:12:55,600
then the military swooped in from both

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land and air and in roswell legend

345
00:13:01,910 --> 00:12:59,760
fashion began threatening everybody

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00:13:04,710 --> 00:13:01,920
there swearing them to secrecy and

347
00:13:06,470 --> 00:13:04,720
driving them away from the crash site

348
00:13:07,350 --> 00:13:06,480
anderson was only five years old at the

349
00:13:09,269 --> 00:13:07,360
time

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00:13:11,509 --> 00:13:09,279
so it's even more impressive that he was

351
00:13:13,269 --> 00:13:11,519
able to recall such intricate details

352
00:13:15,269 --> 00:13:13,279
from something that allegedly happened

353
00:13:16,949 --> 00:13:15,279
when he was a child as with some of the

354
00:13:18,870 --> 00:13:16,959
other people we've discussed today

355
00:13:20,790 --> 00:13:18,880
anderson's story continued to grow and

356
00:13:22,389 --> 00:13:20,800
become more fantastic as he began

357
00:13:23,910 --> 00:13:22,399
receiving more attention from roswell

358
00:13:25,350 --> 00:13:23,920
researchers

359
00:13:27,590 --> 00:13:25,360
some elements of his story were

360
00:13:29,590 --> 00:13:27,600
seemingly borrowed or influenced by the

361
00:13:31,430 --> 00:13:29,600
unsolved mysteries episode

362
00:13:34,230 --> 00:13:31,440
he also claims he touched the craft and

363
00:13:35,990 --> 00:13:34,240
described it as being ice cold he

364
00:13:37,509 --> 00:13:36,000
described a foul smell in the air as

365
00:13:39,189 --> 00:13:37,519
well

366
00:13:40,310 --> 00:13:39,199
despite claiming that one of the beings

367
00:13:42,150 --> 00:13:40,320
was alive

368
00:13:44,310 --> 00:13:42,160
that it reacted in fear when the family

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00:13:46,629 --> 00:13:44,320
first arrived on the scene and that his

370
00:13:48,710 --> 00:13:46,639
family attempted to communicate with it

371
00:13:50,949 --> 00:13:48,720
anderson claimed that he reached down

372
00:13:52,310 --> 00:13:50,959
and touched one of the bodies then left

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back in fear

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00:13:57,030 --> 00:13:54,959
because he thought they were dolls

375
00:14:00,310 --> 00:13:57,040
anderson's story had various weird

376
00:14:01,829 --> 00:14:00,320
inconsistencies and again the vivid

377
00:14:04,230 --> 00:14:01,839
memories and details from when he was a

378
00:14:06,629 --> 00:14:04,240
five-year-old child were suspicious but

379
00:14:08,310 --> 00:14:06,639
his credibility eventually crumbled when

380
00:14:09,829 --> 00:14:08,320
he was caught in lies and found to have

381
00:14:12,069 --> 00:14:09,839
forged documents

382
00:14:14,310 --> 00:14:12,079
for starters his five-year-old memory

383
00:14:17,990 --> 00:14:14,320
impressively remembered the archaeology

384
00:14:20,470 --> 00:14:18,000
professor's name a dr buskirk

385
00:14:22,790 --> 00:14:20,480
researchers specifically tom carrey who

386
00:14:24,629 --> 00:14:22,800
holds an advanced degree in anthropology

387
00:14:26,310 --> 00:14:24,639
tracked down an anthropologist named

388
00:14:28,230 --> 00:14:26,320
winfred buskirk

389
00:14:30,389 --> 00:14:28,240
anderson had helped researchers create a

390
00:14:32,550 --> 00:14:30,399
sketch of the buskirk he allegedly saw

391
00:14:34,550 --> 00:14:32,560
at the crash site and reportedly when

392
00:14:37,269 --> 00:14:34,560
people who knew winfred buskirk saw the

393
00:14:39,030 --> 00:14:37,279
sketch the two buskirks seemed to be one

394
00:14:41,430 --> 00:14:39,040
in the same

395
00:14:43,350 --> 00:14:41,440
when dr buskirk was contacted he

396
00:14:47,269 --> 00:14:43,360
informed researchers that he had been in

397
00:14:49,030 --> 00:14:47,279
arizona in july of 1947 not new mexico

398
00:14:50,710 --> 00:14:49,040
and he didn't even earn his phd until

399
00:14:52,949 --> 00:14:50,720
1949

400
00:14:55,509 --> 00:14:52,959
but dr buskirk did teach high school

401
00:14:57,350 --> 00:14:55,519
anthropology in the late 1950s in

402
00:15:00,230 --> 00:14:57,360
albuquerque new mexico

403
00:15:01,750 --> 00:15:00,240
a high school that anderson attended

404
00:15:04,069 --> 00:15:01,760
after contacting the school and

405
00:15:06,470 --> 00:15:04,079
obtaining anderson's records researchers

406
00:15:09,990 --> 00:15:06,480
confirmed that he had taken dr buskirk's

407
00:15:11,350 --> 00:15:10,000
anthropology class in 1957

408
00:15:13,829 --> 00:15:11,360
when anderson became aware that

409
00:15:15,990 --> 00:15:13,839
researchers discovered this information

410
00:15:17,829 --> 00:15:16,000
he threatened legal action

411
00:15:19,829 --> 00:15:17,839
kevin randle was one of the researchers

412
00:15:22,870 --> 00:15:19,839
who discovered that anderson had taken

413
00:15:25,590 --> 00:15:22,880
dr busker's class in 1957 as well as

414
00:15:27,189 --> 00:15:25,600
other inconsistencies in his story

415
00:15:29,509 --> 00:15:27,199
anderson certainly didn't take too

416
00:15:31,670 --> 00:15:29,519
kindly to being called out by randall so

417
00:15:33,910 --> 00:15:31,680
he attempted to create a narrative that

418
00:15:36,230 --> 00:15:33,920
his only interaction with randall was

419
00:15:37,749 --> 00:15:36,240
extremely brief thereby negating

420
00:15:41,350 --> 00:15:37,759
randall's assertion that the two had

421
00:15:43,829 --> 00:15:41,360
spoken for more than an hour to do this

422
00:15:45,590 --> 00:15:43,839
anderson altered his telephone bill and

423
00:15:47,269 --> 00:15:45,600
offered it as proof of a brief

424
00:15:48,790 --> 00:15:47,279
conversation

425
00:15:50,470 --> 00:15:48,800
of course researchers were able to

426
00:15:53,430 --> 00:15:50,480
obtain the phone bill from the phone

427
00:15:55,269 --> 00:15:53,440
company catching anderson in his lie

428
00:15:56,389 --> 00:15:55,279
he also later admitted to altering the

429
00:16:00,150 --> 00:15:56,399
phone bill

430
00:16:02,310 --> 00:16:00,160
forgery here

431
00:16:04,710 --> 00:16:02,320
anderson told researchers that when his

432
00:16:06,949 --> 00:16:04,720
uncle died one of the family members who

433
00:16:09,030 --> 00:16:06,959
was allegedly with him at the crash site

434
00:16:11,749 --> 00:16:09,040
he was given his uncle's diary that was

435
00:16:14,949 --> 00:16:11,759
dated july 1947 and contained his

436
00:16:17,350 --> 00:16:14,959
account of discovering the ufo crash

437
00:16:19,189 --> 00:16:17,360
upon forensic analysis it was determined

438
00:16:21,350 --> 00:16:19,199
that the diaries paper might have been

439
00:16:23,590 --> 00:16:21,360
available in 1947

440
00:16:25,430 --> 00:16:23,600
but the ink wasn't manufactured until

441
00:16:26,949 --> 00:16:25,440
the 1970s

442
00:16:29,990 --> 00:16:26,959
the authenticity of the diary

443
00:16:31,749 --> 00:16:30,000
disintegrated upon further analysis

444
00:16:33,829 --> 00:16:31,759
anderson offered the explanation that

445
00:16:35,670 --> 00:16:33,839
his uncle and his brother like to make

446
00:16:37,590 --> 00:16:35,680
copies of the diary

447
00:16:41,110 --> 00:16:37,600
handwritten copies

448
00:16:43,509 --> 00:16:41,120
however his uncle died in 1965

449
00:16:46,470 --> 00:16:43,519
before the ink was manufactured

450
00:16:48,629 --> 00:16:46,480
and to add to the red flags researchers

451
00:16:50,310 --> 00:16:48,639
ascertained that the typewriter used to

452
00:16:52,550 --> 00:16:50,320
create the cover letter that accompanied

453
00:16:53,910 --> 00:16:52,560
the diary sent to roswell researcher

454
00:16:56,389 --> 00:16:53,920
stanton friedman

455
00:16:57,670 --> 00:16:56,399
was the same typewriter used to alter

456
00:17:00,470 --> 00:16:57,680
the phone bill

457
00:17:01,829 --> 00:17:00,480
the january 1993 issue of the mufon ufo

458
00:17:03,910 --> 00:17:01,839
journal included a statement from

459
00:17:06,870 --> 00:17:03,920
friedman and his co-author at the time

460
00:17:08,870 --> 00:17:06,880
don berliner stating that they quote no

461
00:17:11,350 --> 00:17:08,880
longer have confidence in the testimony

462
00:17:13,029 --> 00:17:11,360
of gerald anderson end quote

463
00:17:15,189 --> 00:17:13,039
and researcher kevin randle and others

464
00:17:18,230 --> 00:17:15,199
have opined that anderson has become but

465
00:17:20,390 --> 00:17:18,240
a footnote in the roswell ufo saga

466
00:17:22,470 --> 00:17:20,400
[Music]

467
00:17:24,630 --> 00:17:22,480
what we've covered today are the primary

468
00:17:27,669 --> 00:17:24,640
sources for claims of alien bodies

469
00:17:29,990 --> 00:17:27,679
associated with the roswell ufo incident

470
00:17:31,510 --> 00:17:30,000
again these are the only alleged

471
00:17:33,270 --> 00:17:31,520
first-hand witnesses who have been

472
00:17:35,510 --> 00:17:33,280
publicly identified and interviewed

473
00:17:37,430 --> 00:17:35,520
about this incident

474
00:17:39,510 --> 00:17:37,440
there are other claims and testimony

475
00:17:41,510 --> 00:17:39,520
from others that refer to bodies and

476
00:17:43,210 --> 00:17:41,520
we'll eventually get to those too but

477
00:17:45,590 --> 00:17:43,220
that's going to do it for this episode

478
00:17:47,190 --> 00:17:45,600
[Music]

479
00:17:49,350 --> 00:17:47,200
i hope you'll join me again for the next

480
00:17:51,590 --> 00:17:49,360
episode as we continue navigating this

481
00:17:52,390 --> 00:17:51,600
strange and fascinating legendary ufo

482
00:17:53,830 --> 00:17:52,400
case

483
00:17:55,270 --> 00:17:53,840
you can always find more episodes of

484
00:17:56,950 --> 00:17:55,280
unknown on all the major podcast

485
00:17:58,190 --> 00:17:56,960
platforms and you can always find this

486
00:18:00,070 --> 00:17:58,200
show and our other shows at

487
00:18:02,150 --> 00:18:00,080
rogueplanet.tv because unknown is a

488
00:18:04,150 --> 00:18:02,160
rogue planet production rogueplanet.tv

489
00:18:06,310 --> 00:18:04,160
is your home for all the strange

490
00:18:08,710 --> 00:18:06,320
this show is at unknown ufopod on

491
00:18:10,549 --> 00:18:08,720
twitter i'm at acecentric on twitter and

492
00:18:12,789 --> 00:18:10,559
instagram and you can always email me at

493
00:18:15,110 --> 00:18:12,799
jason rogueplanet.tv or simply use the

494
00:18:16,230 --> 00:18:15,120
contact form on realplanet.tv

495
00:18:17,590 --> 00:18:16,240
we're always happy to hear from you

496
00:18:19,430 --> 00:18:17,600
whether it's simply feedback about the

497
00:18:21,350 --> 00:18:19,440
show a ufo sighting you want to share

498
00:18:24,390 --> 00:18:21,360
with us a paranormal case you'd like us

499
00:18:25,830 --> 00:18:24,400
to cover or investigate or anything else

500
00:18:28,150 --> 00:18:25,840
thanks again for hanging out today i'm

501
00:18:29,510 --> 00:18:28,160
jason mcclellan do us a favor friends

502
00:18:31,270 --> 00:18:29,520
always treat the ufo subject with the

503
00:18:33,830 --> 00:18:31,280
cautious and responsible skepticism it

504
00:18:35,990 --> 00:18:33,840
deserves question everything have the

505
00:18:38,070 --> 00:18:36,000
courage to form your own opinions keep

506
00:18:39,909 --> 00:18:38,080
truth as the focus of your quest even if

507
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:39,919
the truth conflicts with your opinions

508
00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:42,210
and of course stay strange

509
00:18:44,780 --> 00:18:42,450
[Applause]

510
00:18:46,570 --> 00:18:44,790
[Music]